Fixing the medic class. Major update in 2nd post with tl;dr! [ACCEPTED]
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- [Lsrcr]Lost_Soul
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by Karu_Tepes » July 7, 2019, 3:38 pm
Your name: Lost_Soul
Picture: Keep the picture in this
Importance of suggestion: 9 given how broken an useless an entire class is
Why should it be accepted: So we have a thread on fixing the medic. I filed a bug report on the ambulance, but I was told the private ambulances are working as intended when purchased...so here's my questions.
1: Why is the medic class so broken?
2: What can we do to fix the medic class?
3: How can we be sure it's balanced?
4: How can we fix the ambulance we purchase from a dealership?
5: How can we do this in such a way everyone is happy?
1: This one is rather simple. The medic class has been handicapped from day one. They are considered LEOs, meaning criminals can shoot them, but they cannot carry a gun or armor. Medics have only one choice when a wanted player comes at them, which is run. Do you know how many times I've had my ambulance shot to pieces then had the user come and shoot me down just for fun? Wasn't doing shit, but they were 'cop hunting' and thought it would be fun. Add to it that drugs, injections, and hospitals exist, and you have a handicapped class with NO PURPOSE!
2: In game, the paramedics are listed as LEOs. Paramedics are not LEOs in the real world. While some departments do train their officers (or a select group of them) to be paramedics, they are still LEOs first and medics second. A police medic would have all the power of a LEO (/cuff and such) and to shoot, but also heal others (NOT themselves).
Private medics are also a real world thing, and are simple for profit BLS/ALS companies that respond to calls with private ambulances and perform EMS. They are given 'some' form of recognition as first responders, but are not considered LEOs, fire/rescue, ect. They are, for the most part, just people who buy an ambulance, get trained, get a dispatch number, and do the work. For these cases, the private medic would be perfect. Sure they could do the normal stuff, but also go and rob, heist, shoot, ect. However, once yellow they not only can then be harmed by LEOs, but also they CANNOT use /healme anymore.
For the actual medic class though, the one that is pink, we need a whole rework. One, both police and criminals agree paramedics are off limits irl. There have even been cases where during shoot outs, criminals will demand a medic to treat a fallen gang member in exchange for something. Usually 'You can arrest him, just dont let him die like this.". For this reason, the medic class should be invulnerable to LEOs, yellow+ players, and so on. However, this also means not only do they not need /healme but also no need for a gun AT ALL. This would basically be the 'safe' class, where a player can be safe from harm to watch the action and gather score via /heal while also having pretty much zero other interaction. No DMing, no robbing, no banks. They would only be able to do /heal and simple buy a car kind of stuff. Think of it like the 'welcome new person! Here's a noob class to enjoy so you can get to learn the commands, understand the gameplay, and know some users while gathering score!". Now the 1 vs 3 score per /heal thing, that I'm not sure about if this would indeed be a learning class.
As for making people use /request medic more, my only idea there is pretty simple. Make it needed. Only criminals who are wanted can use drugs. Remove injections and cures from hospitals. Make it so police, civilians, and wanted players without drugs on them NEED a medic to heal. Of course that could lead to people who would rather /kill or lose their HP instead of using /request medic but for that, we need a death penalty. No, not taken down by force.
I mean that when you get sent to jail, you sit there for 60 to 300 seconds as punishment. Make death just as harsh. Put their character in a cloud (or a burning inferno...) and keep them there for 60 to 300 seconds. Preferably while a bot standing there says things such as "Was it truly worth it?" and "Well at least you didn't go out like a bitch.". I guarantee you players put up with that each death and the medics are going to become the new gold medalists of the server.
3: Most of the changes I listed above are balanced. Now someone asked about what if a medic isn't online. So, I did some thinking. The police should be able to get free health from the police department. Wanted players can take drugs. So while those systems still work as intended, and can be used when no medics are online, medics become an easier solution. A cop can /request medic and get a heal delivered, or he can walk back to the LSPD and heal. Wanted users can use drugs, but then they have to buy more, their wanted level goes up, they slowly recover. A medic is fast and instant. Also, given how most medics are nonprofit or covered by insurance, make it free. (I don't actually know if the money given to me when I use /heal is their's or not.)
4: There is an ambulance currently available to be purchased from the dealership in Los Santos for $100,000, but it gives you a wanted level as soon as you get into it. There's alot to say on this one, but I want to keep this relatively short. So to sum it up, ambulances can be purchased legally in the real world. Either make the ambulance not a LEO vehicle (it's not that in real life anyways regardless of lights/sirens), fix the dealership ambulance so that it is our vehicle not the LEOs, or remove it from the dealership so players do not get ripped off. It's been suggested that I 'Sell back the ambulance you noob", except that would only get me $75k of my $100k investment, and I like my ambulance. I wish being a medic was a viable class. But as it sits, the intended use of purchasing the vehicle was a 'tactical medic', meaning fucking you, I'm private, and if you aim a gun at me I'm going to blow your ass off ^-^
5: I think with everything I've put here, everyone should have what we need to make everyone happy with the changes (or at least not bitching about them). We also now have an entire thread right here to discuss what else could be changed. I'll even make a suggestion log edited to this one. I know two people who will tear this apart anyways, but to those two people, don't bother. You're both on ignore and I won't see it, and I have no desire to reply.
Please keep this thread on topic and give useful, productive suggestions so that we can work together to finally fix this class and vehicle, thank you.
Picture: Keep the picture in this
Spoiler: show
Why should it be accepted: So we have a thread on fixing the medic. I filed a bug report on the ambulance, but I was told the private ambulances are working as intended when purchased...so here's my questions.
1: Why is the medic class so broken?
2: What can we do to fix the medic class?
3: How can we be sure it's balanced?
4: How can we fix the ambulance we purchase from a dealership?
5: How can we do this in such a way everyone is happy?
1: This one is rather simple. The medic class has been handicapped from day one. They are considered LEOs, meaning criminals can shoot them, but they cannot carry a gun or armor. Medics have only one choice when a wanted player comes at them, which is run. Do you know how many times I've had my ambulance shot to pieces then had the user come and shoot me down just for fun? Wasn't doing shit, but they were 'cop hunting' and thought it would be fun. Add to it that drugs, injections, and hospitals exist, and you have a handicapped class with NO PURPOSE!
2: In game, the paramedics are listed as LEOs. Paramedics are not LEOs in the real world. While some departments do train their officers (or a select group of them) to be paramedics, they are still LEOs first and medics second. A police medic would have all the power of a LEO (/cuff and such) and to shoot, but also heal others (NOT themselves).
Private medics are also a real world thing, and are simple for profit BLS/ALS companies that respond to calls with private ambulances and perform EMS. They are given 'some' form of recognition as first responders, but are not considered LEOs, fire/rescue, ect. They are, for the most part, just people who buy an ambulance, get trained, get a dispatch number, and do the work. For these cases, the private medic would be perfect. Sure they could do the normal stuff, but also go and rob, heist, shoot, ect. However, once yellow they not only can then be harmed by LEOs, but also they CANNOT use /healme anymore.
For the actual medic class though, the one that is pink, we need a whole rework. One, both police and criminals agree paramedics are off limits irl. There have even been cases where during shoot outs, criminals will demand a medic to treat a fallen gang member in exchange for something. Usually 'You can arrest him, just dont let him die like this.". For this reason, the medic class should be invulnerable to LEOs, yellow+ players, and so on. However, this also means not only do they not need /healme but also no need for a gun AT ALL. This would basically be the 'safe' class, where a player can be safe from harm to watch the action and gather score via /heal while also having pretty much zero other interaction. No DMing, no robbing, no banks. They would only be able to do /heal and simple buy a car kind of stuff. Think of it like the 'welcome new person! Here's a noob class to enjoy so you can get to learn the commands, understand the gameplay, and know some users while gathering score!". Now the 1 vs 3 score per /heal thing, that I'm not sure about if this would indeed be a learning class.
As for making people use /request medic more, my only idea there is pretty simple. Make it needed. Only criminals who are wanted can use drugs. Remove injections and cures from hospitals. Make it so police, civilians, and wanted players without drugs on them NEED a medic to heal. Of course that could lead to people who would rather /kill or lose their HP instead of using /request medic but for that, we need a death penalty. No, not taken down by force.
I mean that when you get sent to jail, you sit there for 60 to 300 seconds as punishment. Make death just as harsh. Put their character in a cloud (or a burning inferno...) and keep them there for 60 to 300 seconds. Preferably while a bot standing there says things such as "Was it truly worth it?" and "Well at least you didn't go out like a bitch.". I guarantee you players put up with that each death and the medics are going to become the new gold medalists of the server.3: Most of the changes I listed above are balanced. Now someone asked about what if a medic isn't online. So, I did some thinking. The police should be able to get free health from the police department. Wanted players can take drugs. So while those systems still work as intended, and can be used when no medics are online, medics become an easier solution. A cop can /request medic and get a heal delivered, or he can walk back to the LSPD and heal. Wanted users can use drugs, but then they have to buy more, their wanted level goes up, they slowly recover. A medic is fast and instant. Also, given how most medics are nonprofit or covered by insurance, make it free. (I don't actually know if the money given to me when I use /heal is their's or not.)
4: There is an ambulance currently available to be purchased from the dealership in Los Santos for $100,000, but it gives you a wanted level as soon as you get into it. There's alot to say on this one, but I want to keep this relatively short. So to sum it up, ambulances can be purchased legally in the real world. Either make the ambulance not a LEO vehicle (it's not that in real life anyways regardless of lights/sirens), fix the dealership ambulance so that it is our vehicle not the LEOs, or remove it from the dealership so players do not get ripped off. It's been suggested that I 'Sell back the ambulance you noob", except that would only get me $75k of my $100k investment, and I like my ambulance. I wish being a medic was a viable class. But as it sits, the intended use of purchasing the vehicle was a 'tactical medic', meaning fucking you, I'm private, and if you aim a gun at me I'm going to blow your ass off ^-^
5: I think with everything I've put here, everyone should have what we need to make everyone happy with the changes (or at least not bitching about them). We also now have an entire thread right here to discuss what else could be changed. I'll even make a suggestion log edited to this one. I know two people who will tear this apart anyways, but to those two people, don't bother. You're both on ignore and I won't see it, and I have no desire to reply.
Please keep this thread on topic and give useful, productive suggestions so that we can work together to finally fix this class and vehicle, thank you.
Last edited by Karu_Tepes on July 14, 2019, 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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- [Lsrcr]Lost_Soul
- Posts: 2685
- Joined: July 5, 2019, 4:31 pm
- Location: A small shack across from Pagati
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Post
by Karu_Tepes » July 12, 2019, 6:44 pm
INFORMATION UPDATE!!!!
So, I have been going around the forums here, doing alot of digging for information to help with this suggestion, and I came across something interesting...perhaps even rule changing.
From the official site rules, I pulled the following quotes:
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=25646
Shooting innocent players or police officers when you are innocent or a police officer.
Randomly attacking other players without a legitimate reason (ie. they robbed/raped you) is not allowed. This includes carparking and heliblading
Using drive-by (in a car or on a bike/motorcycle) to kill a player that is innocent, has not done anything to you (successfully robbed/raped), or is a cop while you are innocent is counted as deathmatching and is also forbidden.
Abusing any/all loopholes at Lsrcr is considered as rule breaking and those found guilty shall be punished for it.
Those are rules...but look carefully at what I bolded. Police officer, cop, innocent player, those are very specific...
Now look at the medic description. At no point does it ever say 'Medic's are LEOs"
Likewise the police description says nothing about medics being included.
I have been told MANY times that the medic is considered a leo...but neither the medic description or the police description says that. Furthermore, I have done MANY in game tests. If a medic tries to use /taze. /cuff, or /arrest, we get a message saying "YOU ARE NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER!". If we try to get guns at LSPD, same thing, told we are NOT LEOs. If we buy a gun from ammunation, and fire it, it is removed from our inventory and we get a message saying we cannot hurt people, use /911.
Despite what I have been told by users, and even staff, there is zero documented proof Medics are Law Enforcement Officers. In game, I have plenty of proof to argue AGAINST medics being law enforcement officers. I've been digging at this and can finding nothing proving we are considered LEOs, not one thing. But I find more and more evidence that we are NOT. I think that this is a myth. Someone, somehow, started the idea that medics are LEOs, despite being wrong, and that it has somehow over time just become accepted as fact without it being true. Now to be fair to the people who believe this, I think there IS a factual basis on this in one section: Coding.
Anyone who is a civilian who attempts to drive an ambulance gets a wanted level for "Stolen law enforcement vehicle". But medics can drive them. Medics also can drive police cars. Now yes, it could be argued this is because 'medic's are LEOs', but I think the answer is more clear with simplicity and coding. Ambulances are government vehicles by game code. Ambulances fall into the same set with the fire truck, fire truck la, LSPD, SFPD, Barracks, Police Maverick, and so on. To make it so only Medics can drive the ambulance, without getting a wanted level, the SIMPLE thing to do, coding wise, would be code medics as LEOs, then remove all the LEO data except vehicle permissions. A simple copy/paste/delete. Hell, it's what I would do as a programmer. But while the coding might say LEO, that doesn't entail the class itself is a LEO. It just means they can drive government vehicles. I think this was an unintentional misunderstanding in how the class truly works, and now sits in a grey area and has been put through an acceptable loophole.
To the staff: Please look through this, see what I am saying, and take this into consideration.
To the players: Know that I am NOT trying to come in as a new player and rewrite the entire game you love. I love this server too. I just want to see it grow, I want to see everything work, and it pains me to see features that are so broken.
If anyone, can find any proof, in game or in text on the forum, that says clearly "Medic's are LEO's, that is NOT hearsay (person to person), please provide it to me so I can see it.
tl;dr: I did alot of digging, and couldnt find proof medics are LEOs, but found alot of proof they aren't. I think it's a myth that has unintentionally become a fake fact.
Sorry this is so long, But I wanted to post everything I could find so that all the information needed is in one place. Thank you.
So, I have been going around the forums here, doing alot of digging for information to help with this suggestion, and I came across something interesting...perhaps even rule changing.
From the official site rules, I pulled the following quotes:
Do not deliberately annoy another player. Purposely provoking a player to evoke a reaction is forbidden. An example would be constantly following and ramming a player.
Shooting innocent players or police officers when you are innocent or a police officer.
Randomly attacking other players without a legitimate reason (ie. they robbed/raped you) is not allowed. This includes carparking and heliblading.
Using drive-by (in a car or on a bike/motorcycle) to kill a player that is innocent, has not done anything to you (successfully robbed/raped), or is a cop while you are innocent is counted as deathmatching and is also forbidden.
Abusing any/all loopholes at Lsrcr is considered as rule breaking and those found guilty shall be punished for it.From viewtopic.php?f=88&t=49883
Medic / Private MedicFrom
A Doctor that can cure you from chlamydia and heal you if you have any health missing.
Shown as a Pink blip on the map
Fixed paycheck of $20,000
Can be called by /medic
Gains 1 score and a bonus amount of money for every heal and cure
List of Commands
/heal - heal a patient
/cure - cure a patient
/infect - infect a patient
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=25646
4. Law Enforcement Team(S.W.A.T, Army, Cop)I bring this up to point out something...
Army has to kill suspects with deadly force(tanks, hydras, hunters) If necessary then arrest. } You can apply to army or swat, but you can't be in both factions at the same time.
S.W.A.T has to taze, cuff and drag suspect in the car and bring it to the checkpoint.
Cop can kill or arrest suspects.
Shooting innocent players or police officers when you are innocent or a police officer.
Randomly attacking other players without a legitimate reason (ie. they robbed/raped you) is not allowed. This includes carparking and heliblading
Using drive-by (in a car or on a bike/motorcycle) to kill a player that is innocent, has not done anything to you (successfully robbed/raped), or is a cop while you are innocent is counted as deathmatching and is also forbidden.
Abusing any/all loopholes at Lsrcr is considered as rule breaking and those found guilty shall be punished for it.
Those are rules...but look carefully at what I bolded. Police officer, cop, innocent player, those are very specific...
Now look at the medic description. At no point does it ever say 'Medic's are LEOs"
Likewise the police description says nothing about medics being included.
I have been told MANY times that the medic is considered a leo...but neither the medic description or the police description says that. Furthermore, I have done MANY in game tests. If a medic tries to use /taze. /cuff, or /arrest, we get a message saying "YOU ARE NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER!". If we try to get guns at LSPD, same thing, told we are NOT LEOs. If we buy a gun from ammunation, and fire it, it is removed from our inventory and we get a message saying we cannot hurt people, use /911.
Despite what I have been told by users, and even staff, there is zero documented proof Medics are Law Enforcement Officers. In game, I have plenty of proof to argue AGAINST medics being law enforcement officers. I've been digging at this and can finding nothing proving we are considered LEOs, not one thing. But I find more and more evidence that we are NOT. I think that this is a myth. Someone, somehow, started the idea that medics are LEOs, despite being wrong, and that it has somehow over time just become accepted as fact without it being true. Now to be fair to the people who believe this, I think there IS a factual basis on this in one section: Coding.
Anyone who is a civilian who attempts to drive an ambulance gets a wanted level for "Stolen law enforcement vehicle". But medics can drive them. Medics also can drive police cars. Now yes, it could be argued this is because 'medic's are LEOs', but I think the answer is more clear with simplicity and coding. Ambulances are government vehicles by game code. Ambulances fall into the same set with the fire truck, fire truck la, LSPD, SFPD, Barracks, Police Maverick, and so on. To make it so only Medics can drive the ambulance, without getting a wanted level, the SIMPLE thing to do, coding wise, would be code medics as LEOs, then remove all the LEO data except vehicle permissions. A simple copy/paste/delete. Hell, it's what I would do as a programmer. But while the coding might say LEO, that doesn't entail the class itself is a LEO. It just means they can drive government vehicles. I think this was an unintentional misunderstanding in how the class truly works, and now sits in a grey area and has been put through an acceptable loophole.
To the staff: Please look through this, see what I am saying, and take this into consideration.
To the players: Know that I am NOT trying to come in as a new player and rewrite the entire game you love. I love this server too. I just want to see it grow, I want to see everything work, and it pains me to see features that are so broken.
If anyone, can find any proof, in game or in text on the forum, that says clearly "Medic's are LEO's, that is NOT hearsay (person to person), please provide it to me so I can see it.
tl;dr: I did alot of digging, and couldnt find proof medics are LEOs, but found alot of proof they aren't. I think it's a myth that has unintentionally become a fake fact.
Sorry this is so long, But I wanted to post everything I could find so that all the information needed is in one place. Thank you.
Last edited by Karu_Tepes on July 14, 2019, 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
So your suggestion is pretty long and from the little I read, you were comparing lsrcr with real life. And if we go to things which are not realistic, we can fill pages and pages full of that.
So this is how medic could be currently used:
A team of cops would get this medic to G on their car (passenger seat) and heal them whenever they lose health. Cops also have the ability to use injections, but if a medic is skilled, he can heal the cop before he dies which can save his life. (this only happens if the cop is on top of the car)
Same goes for private medic, but for criminals.
It is true indeed that medic class is quite unused and not fair, but its not useless.
Also in the future, I suggest you refrain from making such long suggestions, but get to the idea quick, so what you suggest to be implemented on the server and why do you suggest that.
So this is how medic could be currently used:
A team of cops would get this medic to G on their car (passenger seat) and heal them whenever they lose health. Cops also have the ability to use injections, but if a medic is skilled, he can heal the cop before he dies which can save his life. (this only happens if the cop is on top of the car)
Same goes for private medic, but for criminals.
It is true indeed that medic class is quite unused and not fair, but its not useless.
Also in the future, I suggest you refrain from making such long suggestions, but get to the idea quick, so what you suggest to be implemented on the server and why do you suggest that.
glgy geri
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- [Lsrcr]Lost_Soul
- Posts: 2685
- Joined: July 5, 2019, 4:31 pm
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by Karu_Tepes » July 12, 2019, 9:49 pm
I'm aware that most of Lsrcr is unrealistic, but I was using realistic ideas on how to implement a new system. And I know it's lengthy, but the point is to express everything needed. The less I leave for the developers to guess, they less work they need to do. And while your idea is plausible, the chances of getting enough cops willing to do that is almost nil. Sorry.
- [Lsrcr]Ak331
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: November 21, 2015, 12:00 pm
- Location: Mauritius
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And you still think people will not spawn in a leo or cophunting group where they get free injects and drugs and will spawn medic where someone request medic once in 1h. And removing drugs and inject for civils and leo will be imbalance as if someone car blown up or get attack or dmed got robbed and the guy killing him or even a mech broke his car. Well its a game dude not real life, understand this and not every thing needs to be perfect.
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- [Lsrcr]Lost_Soul
- Posts: 2685
- Joined: July 5, 2019, 4:31 pm
- Location: A small shack across from Pagati
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by Karu_Tepes » July 13, 2019, 4:34 am
And you still think people will not spawn in a leo or cophunting group where they get free injects and drugs and will spawn medic where someone request medic once in 1h. And removing drugs and inject for civils and leo will be imbalance as if someone car blown up or get attack or dmed got robbed and the guy killing him or even a mech broke his car. Well its a game dude not real life, understand this and not every thing needs to be perfect.I put in there how to relieve the issue of spawning with injects and such. I said it should be harder to get/not a thing.
And yes, removing them would be an imbalance if you all out removed them, but I also gave fixes for that. It should also be noted you can go to any food store like Cluckin' Bell and eat for health. So even if drugs and injections were removed entirely, and no medics were online, there is STILL a healing option/
I know it's a game, but this is a suggestion how to make this game better. An entire class that is not only useless but also handicapped is a bad thing. And again, this is only a suggestion. They don't have to accept it, but they could if they wish. That's their choice.
- [Lsrcr]Ak331
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: November 21, 2015, 12:00 pm
- Location: Mauritius
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If you wanna be so realistic just think a lil bit where there is a fight leos are shooted so emergency medics are called to cure them and you think the criminal would say go on live your life medic im killing only cops and as i know a medic will not hurt someone but will heal and will die.
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- [Lsrcr]Lost_Soul
- Posts: 2685
- Joined: July 5, 2019, 4:31 pm
- Location: A small shack across from Pagati
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by Karu_Tepes » July 13, 2019, 4:39 pm
If you wanna be so realistic just think a lil bit where there is a fight leos are shooted so emergency medics are called to cure them and you think the criminal would say go on live your life medic im killing only cops and as i know a medic will not hurt someone but will heal and will die.This has happened in many situations. Often hostage situations have this occur. The hostage takers injure someone (usually by accident) and will allow a medic to enter and remove the person. They know a murder charge would instant halt the negotiations. Most crazed shooters would not allow a medic or anyone around, which is why we have these! https://imgur.com/a/AgwZ7fy
Yes, that is indeed an armored ambulance. Yes, those are indeed paramedics in full body armor. You want to talk about realism? Then let's add fucking undamagable FBI trucks into the game and give medics unlimited health and so on!
Or...just make shooting a medic Deathmatching, I mean that works too...
- [Lsrcr]Ak331
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: November 21, 2015, 12:00 pm
- Location: Mauritius
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- [Lsrcr]Ak331
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: November 21, 2015, 12:00 pm
- Location: Mauritius
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